Calley Means on Rogan: Glyphosate Immunity Was ‘Jammed Down Our Throats’ and ‘Indefensible’
On a Joe Rogan episode released the day Susie Wiles' exit was announced, former Kennedy adviser Calley Means gave his account of how glyphosate won a national security order and Supreme Court backing. Federal filings show Bayer paid $1.08 million to two lobbying firms where Wiles once worked.
In a Joe Rogan Experience episode released the day President Trump replaced Susie Wiles as White House chief of staff, Calley Means laid out, step by step, his account of how the maker of Roundup got a national security order and a Supreme Court win while Health and Human Services (HHS) Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. was shut out of both. Means, a former top adviser to Kennedy, called it “immunity for pesticide makers,” “jammed down our throats with no public discussion.”
TLDR
- Means says a staffer for Wiles put the glyphosate executive order on the table and said, “This is final. It’s national security. It’s coming out tomorrow.”
- He says “nobody in military leadership sees this as a national security issue.” The order cites national defense, names a “single domestic producer,” and has a section titled “Immunity.” Bayer is that producer, Farm Policy News reported.
- He says Wiles’ team worked with the Justice Department on the argument that got the Supreme Court to take Bayer’s case. The docket shows the Court itself asked for the government’s views, and Harris, whom he named as the author, is not on that brief.
- Bayer U.S. has paid $1.08 million since January 2025 to two lobbying firms where Wiles once worked, federal disclosures show. She is not listed on the filings. When Rogan asked whether glyphosate “just got liability removed,” Means said, “after paying Ballard a ton of money.”
- Means says there is “no medical disagreement” about glyphosate’s health dangers. A federal appeals court threw out the Environmental Protection Agency’s (EPA) “not likely” cancer finding in 2022, though EPA has not abandoned the science behind it.
“Not Up for Discussion”
Means, who left the administration in October, said he warned Wiles’ team and Agriculture Department leadership that weighing in on glyphosate liability would be “a political disaster.” He said he was then called into a room, handed the executive order and told it was final. He was told to inform Kennedy, and that Kennedy “should not be calling the president.” He said Wiles called Kennedy’s office: “We’re not discussing this.” It was announced the next day, he said.
“Both of these things were completely done without Bobby Kennedy throughout any policy process,” Means said, referring to the order and the government’s Supreme Court position.
“National Security”
Executive Order 14387, signed Feb. 18, is titled “Promoting the National Defense by Ensuring an Adequate Supply of Elemental Phosphorus and Glyphosate-Based Herbicides.” It says the U.S. has “only a single domestic producer” of both, and tells the agriculture secretary that orders issued under it must not place the “corporate viability” of any domestic producer at risk. A section titled “Immunity” confers the protection in section 707 of the Defense Production Act, which bars damages for acts taken to comply with orders issued under that law. Bayer, through Monsanto, is the only domestic supplier of glyphosate, Farm Policy News reported.
In August 2025, Bayer Chief Executive Bill Anderson said, “Unless something changes, we are going to have to stop producing glyphosate,” Reuters reported. Means said the order “alluded to liability protection using national defense reasons.”
The Supreme Court
Means said the Court “probably wasn’t going to take the case” until the administration urged it to, and that the Biden administration had chosen not to. The Court asked for the government’s views in June 2025, and the solicitor general’s brief, filed Dec. 1, 2025, urged it to take the case, the docket shows. In 2022, the Biden administration’s solicitor general urged the Court not to hear a similar Roundup appeal, and the Court declined.
Means said Heidi Overton, whom he described as Wiles’ person and who is now nominated for Food and Drug Administration commissioner, worked with the Justice Department on that argument and “did not consult Bobby Kennedy.” He said Sarah Harris, brought into the solicitor general’s office, wrote an opinion urging the Court to take the case, and “came from the law firm that is Bayer’s main law firm.” Harris, a former partner at Williams & Connolly, is not listed on the government’s December brief. She signed its later brief supporting Monsanto and argued the case for the United States in April, the docket shows. Williams & Connolly has represented Bayer CropScience and Monsanto in patent disputes, according to the firm. Whether it is Bayer’s main law firm could not be confirmed.
On June 25, the Court ruled 7-2 that federal law blocks state failure-to-warn claims over Roundup’s label, The Philadelphia Inquirer reported. Asked by Rogan how a product linked to cancer could get liability protection, Means said, “It’s indefensible.” Means said that when a farmer later raised the ruling, President Trump said, “It’s a terrible idea. How the hell did this happen?”
The Money
Means said “a group of lobbyists from Tallahassee” was slowing down the policies voters chose. When Rogan asked whether the substance “just got liability removed,” Means answered, “after paying Ballard a ton of money.”
Ballard Partners, the Tallahassee lobbying firm where Wiles was a partner until 2019, registered Bayer U.S. as a client in December 2024 and has reported $90,000 a quarter in lobbying income from it since January 2025, according to federal lobbying disclosures. That totals $630,000 through September 2026, with Brian Ballard listed as a lobbyist on “the importance of crop protection tools.” Mercury Public Affairs, where Wiles was a co-chair until she became chief of staff, registered Bayer U.S. in August 2025 and has reported $450,000 since, on “crop protection tools and related supply chains.” Wiles is not listed on any of the filings, which began after she left each firm. The filings do not mention the executive order or the Supreme Court case.
Wiles gave Trump her resignation Thursday night, The Associated Press reported, citing a person familiar with the events. Trump named Stephen Miller to replace her on Friday, the day the episode was released. It is not clear when the episode was recorded.
The Cancer Record
Explaining why he saw the issue as politically explosive, Means described glyphosate as “a product that has been proven to give kids cancer.” The World Health Organization’s cancer agency classified glyphosate as “probably carcinogenic to humans” in 2015. EPA found it “not likely” to cause cancer. In 2022 a federal appeals court ruled that finding was not supported by substantial evidence and vacated the human-health part of EPA’s review. EPA withdrew that interim decision but said it was not withdrawing its underlying scientific findings, AgencyIQ reported.
By April 2025, Bayer had paid about $10 billion to settle claims, Reuters reported. It disputes that Roundup causes cancer. Bayer said the order underscores farmers’ need for access to the herbicide, Reuters reported. After the ruling, Anderson said it provides “regulatory clarity,” The Philadelphia Inquirer reported.
Why It Matters
Means said his position “wasn’t a crazy stance to ban anything. It was about whether people could sue if they get cancer.” In his words: “This is literally whether there should be a legal recourse.” The White House, Wiles, Overton, Harris, Ballard Partners, Mercury and Bayer had not publicly responded to his account as of Nov. 7.
Sources: The Joe Rogan Experience #2578, Nov. 6, 2026; Executive Order 14387; Farm Policy News, Feb. 2026; Reuters; Farm Policy News, April 2025; Supreme Court docket, Monsanto v. Durnell; Supreme Court docket, Monsanto v. Hardeman; The Philadelphia Inquirer; IARC; NRDC v. EPA (9th Cir. 2022); AgencyIQ; Williams & Connolly; Sarah Harris profile; Federal lobbying disclosures (Bayer U.S. LLC); The Associated Press (via OPB); CNN; Susie Wiles biography.